Jay
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Welcome to Episode 125
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[00:00:00] Emily: Hey, hey, and welcome back to episode number 125 of the Brave Widow show. Today I talk with Jay Ramsden, who is the Empty Nest coach, and I love the conversation that we had together, and I know that you're going to love it too.
Upcoming Widow Winter Solstice Event
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[00:00:17] Emily: Before we dive into our conversation, I want to make sure that you are aware of an upcoming event that we have happening on Thursday, December 19th, from 7 p.
m. To 9 p. m. Central called the Widow Winter Solstice.
Now the Widow Winter Solstice event is my biggest live event of the year and it is Such a good experience. We are going to have a panel of widows who are going to share their story, talk through some of the toughest questions and challenges that we can throw at them. And we're also going to have giveaways.
We are going to draw live. names of people who have registered. We are going to have music. We're going to have some activities and some prompts. And, as has happened the last two years, we'll probably cry. We'll probably laugh. We will engage and connect. And it's going to be so much fun, just so good and so fulfilling for your heart.
I host the Winter Solstice event, this will be my third year. And the concept is that Winter Solstice is the longest night of the year. And as Widows, we may feel like our days are really dark and the nights are really long. But we can have peace knowing that every day going forward is going to be a little bit brighter.
The Widow Winter Solstice is a completely public and free live event. So feel free to attend, bring a friend, you can wear your comfy clothes and your PJs, you can bring a nice hot cup of hot cocoa or whatever beverage you have of your choice and just snuggle on in for a wonderful experience, with a, Zoom room full of widows.
So to sign up, you can go to bravewidow.com/winter and sign up for the widow winter solstice.
Introducing Jay Ramsden
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[00:02:16] Emily: Before I introduced Jay, I actually had come across his content in a completely different arena than where I normally am. And I love the content that he puts out. I love so many of the things that he has to share about being an empty nester, about the grief that people experience, and how we need to rebuild our world.
Lives again, after this happens, and there was so much overlap in grief with what people experience that I thought it would be a great opportunity to have him on. And there are a few widows in our community that are empty nesters or are transitioning to empty nesters. And I know sometimes that can feel like a struggle.
It can feel like you've lost your person. And now you also have lost your children. You may feel that you've lost your purpose and just feel very lost and alone.
Okay, so let me introduce Jay. Jay Ramsden, the enlightening voice behind This Empty Nest Life podcast helps you navigate the uncharted seas of midlife and empty nesting as he thoughtfully unravels the threads of change, growth, and self discovery and what has become your new normal.
Jay will help you discover the endless opportunities awaiting you in this new phase of life because life doesn't end in your 40s, 50s, and beyond. It begins again. All right, let's dive in.
Welcome to the Brave Widow Show, where we help widows find hope, heal their heart, and dream again for the future. I'm your host, Emily Tanner. After losing my husband of 20 years, I didn't know how I could ever experience true joy and excitement again for the future. I eventually learned how to create a life I love, and I've made it my mission to help other widows do the same.
Join me and the Brave Widow membership community and get started today. Learn more at BraveWidow. com
Jay Ramsden on Empty Nesting and Grief
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[00:04:20] Emily: Today, I have a very special guest, Jay, the Empty Nest Coach, who's going to talk about a topic that's come up recently for several members of our audience, which is that loss of not only your person, but maybe your children that have flown the nest, that have And this is the first time that we've had people who have just moved out and started their own lives, sometimes leaving us feeling very alone and isolated.
So Jay, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I'm so glad to have you.
[00:04:53] Jay: Emily, thank you so much for having me. I think it's one of those forgotten things, right? When, when people Empty nesting is something that we don't talk about in general, but also when you lose a spouse, people don't even know okay, you've lost a spouse and your kids have gone off to college.
They don't know how to approach you. They don't know what to say. It's, it's very awkward for everybody. And you're in this like huge period of grief. So I appreciate the synergy between our groups of people, and having me on today.
[00:05:26] Emily: Yes, absolutely. And sometimes we feel like we need to put on this mask that we're fine.
The kids are fine. Everything's fine when it's not. I I'm just excited about this topic. So if you don't mind, if you would introduce yourself and share, what you do and where people can find you, I know our audience would love to know more about that, about being an empty nest coach.
[00:05:52] Jay: , Jay Ramsden and I spent, 30 some years in education before I got into coaching.
I always wanted to be a psychologist, but got away from schooling. And didn't pursue my master's and PhD. And, and coaching is a way for me to help people move forward in life. And I found that empty nesting when I was coaching, those were the type of people I was attracting to my program as, as clients and it's such, you talk about you're, you're people saying like being fine and masking and so many empty nesters do the same thing because there's a lot of shame and guilt with not being just like woohoo, like I'm empty nesting now.
And because that's the expectation is the champagne pops and there's cruises you're going on and traveling all over the place and, that's not. experience that most people have, or a lot of people have. And it's just, I found this important topic to talk about.
And, there's not a whole lot of men talking about the struggles of empty nesting. And so it's just a little bit of a different perspective as well.
[00:07:02] Emily: Yeah. I think that's great.
Navigating the Emotions of Empty Nesting
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[00:07:03] Emily: And so needed because so many people that I talk to as their kids are moving out and starting their lives, they feel this sense of Oh, I should be excited.
I should be, this should be a happy time. And also I have all these weird emotions and memories and the dirty socks aren't in the living room anymore. And it just, feels very different without them being in the house.
[00:07:29] Jay: Yeah, it's the energy. I always talk about it, like the energy. And even if your house wasn't the house where everybody gravitated to, there's still a coming and going.
I was talking to somebody one time, like in DMs on social, and they just had a really tough time with Five o'clock when, their kids were coming home from school or sports and that whole transition period that, that, that internal clock of something should be going on at this hour was a struggle.
For them, and we chatted through like, all right, so what activities could you find that kind of honor that time period. And then, we were talking a little bit about how their son, who like loved trains, I was like how could you honor the train concept at that hour. Whether it's researching trains or, watching a, a show, a documentary, anything that kind of makes you feel like, okay, I'm doing something connected to my child in that timeframe.
But that whole I think that happens a lot with people that whole kind of time period of, Ooh, something should be happening now and nothing's happening. What do I do?
[00:08:40] Emily: Yeah, I think that's really well said, and I read this great book, The Grieving Brain, it's a little technical but it was really great at illustrating that you are absolutely right.
One of the reasons why widows really struggle in the evening is because that's when their person was there. And When we hear the garage door open or we hear, we realize, Oh, it's six o'clock. We would be eating dinner right now. Our brain has a difficult time after all of these years. Now making new associations at different times of the day without that person that energy Those things there and that can be really difficult.
So I love the way that you embrace Like, how can you honor that memory and that, that essence of what they enjoyed and things they like to do and still feel connected even though that person physically isn't there anymore?
[00:09:32] Jay: Yeah, I think it's about staying connected for sure. A lot of times there's these over, an overflow of emotions when the kids leave home.
And certainly, obviously, if you lose your person, there's going to Be a wave of emotions. And sometimes that wave of emotion just takes you down the river of misery and you're there for a while and that's okay, but also trying to find ways to climb out of the river of misery and get back on shore and dry off and figure out okay, what can I do to make myself still honor them and cherish them without having this wave of emotions come.
[00:10:08] Emily: I imagine that many of your clients also struggle with. Their sense of purpose or meaning or nobody needs me. Even though our kids, I think always need us. There's that sense of Oh nobody, no, nobody's needing my help anymore. Do you find that with your clients and what are some things that you help them with?
If, if so.
[00:10:32] Jay: Yeah, so lack of purpose or, oftentimes people will use the word rudderless and they're not quite sure where they're going or where they're headed. But what I, what I find in regard to that is like the lack of purpose usually stems from thinking about what life was like before.
What your job was. And oftentimes, for good or for bad, or, however you want to phrase is we wrap ourselves up in the identity of being a parent instead of being a person who's a parent. And so for your listeners, I'm, just listen to that, right? It's like, you can choose to wrap yourself up as an identity of a parent, or you can be Emily, the parent.
And that's how I try and get people to look at it as in order to move forward, you have to look at yourself as an individual, which is hard, right? You give your whole life to being a parent and doing the things that you need to do to make sure that your kids are well cared for and taken care of and, achieving success and moving forward and you teach them everything, so that they're well prepared for the future. And the way that I like to think about it is, taking it from when I was working in education, we used to talk about some teachers or are the sage on the stage, right? They're in the middle, just dispensing information. And that's what happens when the kids are, are younger.
And then some teachers are like the mentor in the center. It's like a good partnership. And that's what happens when the kid, like your kids, Are in their teen years right now, you're the mentor in the center, you're parenting, but you're also like playing off of they're learning from other people too.
And then when the emptiness happens. Yes, it's like you get fired from a job you expected to have forever, but you're, you still have the job. You're just the guide on the side now, right? Is this part time when as needed? I almost, your parenting is a W2 job. And And when your kids go off to, college and move out of the house, it's more like a 1099 contracting job.
And I like to add a little bit of humor there too, because sometimes that helps people see, oh yeah, I can see where this change happens for me.
[00:12:45] Emily: Oh yeah, I love that so much. And I wish I could remember, somebody taught the four C's of parenting. I can't even remember the fourth one, but it was like, Caretaker to coach to consultant.
[00:12:57] Jay: Yeah, exactly.
[00:12:59] Emily: As needed, we'll reach out. Thank you. Yeah,
[00:13:02] Jay: we have your resume. We'll be in touch.
[00:13:05] Emily: Yeah. And. I think it's so key that you hit on this whole identity and how we view ourselves, because widows really struggle with that as well I've spent the last 20, 30, 40 years being a wife and being part of a couple, I don't know who I am as a step mother.
Individual person. I don't even feel like an individual person. I feel like I'm a half of a person and just taught a class on Monday about like redefining your identity and realizing as you beautifully said you are this person that has this journey and this story. And so your role as a wife and your role as a mom and a sister and a daughter and all of those things changes over time.
And that doesn't mean that your life is over, that your story, your journey is over. That was a season and that was a part of it, but there can still be a beautiful future and new roles that you begin to identify with. Going forward.
[00:14:10] Jay: Yeah, I, love that too, is to honor it, right? Honor that relationship moving forward, even though, your person is no longer with you.
And it's similar to an empty nesting if you still have your partner or spouse with you, is You still have to honor the memories that you made, but also think about how you're going to create new memories. And so I was messaging with somebody too on social recently about how, like the whole empty nest philosophy and she had lost her husband and her whole, like their whole thought process about empty nesting was we were going to travel.
We had plans and I don't even Know how to go about honoring those plans or even if I should honor those plans or what does it mean? And I was you know thinking about it like that and empty nesting together is like how do you honor where your kids are in life? And where you are in life without your partner, So when what do you talk about when you talk about that with clients is can you share a little bit about that as well?
[00:15:15] Emily: Yeah, definitely. I think Part of it is you're discovering, who you are now, what you want for your future, what things you might enjoy doing. And so much of it is trying to honor the love and the time that you had and the things that you wanted to do and planned to do. But you might realize I don't really want to do that stuff anymore.
I, my husband and I did travel some, but he had a lot of anxiety and so he didn't really like to travel very often. And, we had plans to retire on this big ranch and have horses and cows and all of the things. And I just had this realization one day I don't want to do that by myself.
I don't want
to do that.
I took up traveling that first year with my kids and I took them to places that we loved to go together. And I would be able to share like, Oh, your dad loved this place. And we like to eat at this restaurant. And they got to see almost a different side of, of him and what he enjoyed by.
Yeah. doing some of those things together. And then when I went to places that, we in mind wanted to go to it was difficult for me to be like, Oh, we always wanted to come here. And I would think, Oh, Nathan would have really liked it here. But when I went to England, then I was like, wait, there's no air conditioning.
He would have hated this. Who am I kidding? No, he would not have liked this at all. Too many people, no air conditioning. No. I, I like one of my fellow coach friends, she says that she helps clients navigate, it's not about having a journey that's not messy or that's clean or that's simple, but it's about helping people navigate the messiness.
Of grief and this figuring out who you are and what you want for your future. Like just being that person that's committed to helping people through all of that and handling it with grace, which I think is a really great way to think about that.
[00:17:15] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that parallels well with empty nesting too, right?
Is as parents, like it's messy and complicated and overwhelming and some days are easy and some days are hard. But there's this picture of empty nesting that's supposed to be like Instagram perfect. And that's not the case at all. You still it's still messy and complicated and easy some days and hard some days.
But I think if you can get really clear about what you want your life to look like now, and yes, that you take into account the grief that you're feeling and the path that you're on. But getting really clear about okay, you Like, I have a choice. I can sit around waiting for the what, like waiting for the engagement or waiting for the kids to come home or waiting for that text or that call or waiting for the wedding or the grandkids.
Like you can wait to create new memories or you can start creating new memories now. And I think that's the choice that empty nesters are faced with. And that's what I think creates the sense of. Like I have no purpose or I feel rudderless. It's cause they're, they're waiting.
[00:18:30] Emily: Yeah, I think that's great.
And what I try to teach on the, on the widow side of things is that, we go through this kind of exploring phase. Okay. Try the line dancing class, try the pottery class, try the, real estate investing class, try those things. And yes, in the beginning it's awkward and weird.
And you're like, Why am I even doing this? And it's challenging because it's totally different out of your comfort zone, and our brains don't like that. But, if you will get through some of that awkwardness of figuring out what you enjoy and what resonates with you, you'll be able to do it. You get to stoke that fire and really build up the sense of Oh yeah, I was meant for this.
Or I can help someone here or I can learn and get excited about this over here. And you start to have things to think about and to look forward to rather than only ruminating on what was lost and your, your life. I often will I love Dr. John Deloney. On his podcast, he talks about how when we go through something like a loss or grief that we have to recognize that our old life is in ashes, like the life that we had.
We're not going back to that and we get to build a new life and we get to build a new way of doing things that can equally be beautiful and abundant and something that we enjoy. It's not one or the other. It's both. so much.
[00:19:59] Jay: Yeah, yeah the image that just popped into my head and tell me if this resonates or not is like when it's like a puzzle, right?
Life is like a puzzle. And when something happens, like we've got these pieces over here and we keep trying to see if they fit. And if they don't, that's fine. We put them aside and, we come back to them later or maybe we don't come back to them at all. But sometimes a piece of the puzzle ends up missing.
And when you're done putting the puzzle together, it's still complete. In a way, even though that that puzzle piece is missing and it that's I think the journey of life is it can still be complete, even though something is missing. I don't know if that resonates or tell me, tell me what's going through your brain on that one.
[00:20:42] Emily: Yeah, I think it's a great analogy and what came to mind for me as you said that is the puzzle piece is there. It's a. Different color, like it just looks different now.
[00:20:53] Jay: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Emily: It's the shape has changed or something where we, we can continue to have an emotional relationship. With that person, but it looks very different because, they can't talk back to us, which might be good in some cases, but you just, you don't have that sense of them being here physically or in a way that you can verbally speak with them, but that relationship and a part of
that journey is still present with you. I love the analogy you shared with me about where grief sits in different places as part of our journey. If you don't mind to share that, I just thought that was a great way to look at it.
[00:21:34] Jay: Yeah. Happy to. And we talked about that a little bit before we hit record and it, oftentimes people were like you just have to move through the grief.
And I don't buy into that at all. And so I try and tell my empty nesters is no, like grief, you don't move through it. You move with it. Grief moves with you. And when it, when something happens where the kids go off to college, or certainly if you, you lose your person, grief is driving. They're like literally driving the car and then as time passes, they move into the passenger seat.
Like maybe they're controlling the radio. They're still there. It's pretty present. And then after time they move into the backseat and after time it moves into the trunk and maybe it moves into the car behind you and maybe a couple car lengths back and maybe it's at the rest stop where you had stopped earlier.
It doesn't leave your journey. And sometimes that grief just hops right back into the driver's seat, whether it's the holidays or a song or a recipe. And that's true, I would imagine, for folks your people who, have lost their person, but it's also true for empty nesters with the kids returning from home or returning from college or going back it can hit you in a moment.
[00:22:49] Emily: As someone who is grieving, it was so frustrating when people would say, you never get over grief. You never get over it. It's always there. I'm like that sucks. That's so depressing. And I don't want to think my life's going to be like this. But also there's no finish line either.
To grief. So I think you beautifully articulated something. I even talked with a client about earlier today, she's I feel like I've come so far. I feel I was doing so good. Like , I'm working so hard and I'm moving forward and it just doesn't feel right. In my words, it's brought her back down to her knees.
And I'm like right now it's the holidays. And right now your brain is feeding you all these memories of that person should be here and here's what we'd be doing. And people are asking you, what are you doing for the holidays? Are you excited? And you're screaming on the inside because you just want to say, no, I'm not excited.
My husband is gone.
So I think that analogy is so great of You do carry the grief with you, and it can jump at times back up into the driver's seat or into that passenger's seat, but it doesn't stay there, and it becomes less volatile over time, and it's natural for these times of years for you to, to feel triggered or sad or, or reminiscent, and I imagine for empty nesters, it's very the same, because the kids were little, and they're Christmas PJs, and, we would gather around the tree, and now, we're This one's married and they're doing their own thing for Christmas and it's hard to readjust at times.
[00:24:23] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it hits harder for moms of sons because moms of sons know that when their son finds a partner, right? That relation, it doesn't necessarily change, but the direction of we're going to spend time with more over on this side is hard. So there's a little bit more of grief, like moms and daughters typically stay connected and that experience is different than moms with sons.
And so I was walking a client through recently okay, what is your expectation for the holiday? And they have one of each. They have a daughter and a son. And I'm like, I get that, you want to spend time with both. But you have to figure out what are the boundaries? What does it look like?
You have to respect their new traditions. And can you build you have your idea of what a tradition is at the holiday time. And if your, your kids are off creating their own traditions, it's think of that as the art, our overarching umbrella. Traditions making this big circle.
Nobody can see it, but you and me, but like the tradition is the umbrella. Can you have multiple traditions within the umbrella of tradition family tradition so that you can still do what you like to do and also allow your kids to do what they like to do? Is that possible? It's a great question to consider.
[00:25:48] Emily: Yeah, I that's such an excellent point and one reason I just love my mother in law and father in law to death of my late husband is She never put pressure on us that we had to be there like on the holiday and it had to be their way and Every holiday she would reiterate just let us know what you guys want to do.
We can celebrate a different day. There was never any pressure and it just made me want to be over there more because I felt like, Oh, I can just be me. I can not feel that I'm being pressured to decide between different family members and where we want to be. And maybe that's something for people to consider too, is just being open and not.
Clinging to well, in my mind, it's always been this way and it has to be that way when we have those expectations. It's easy for us to be disappointed or to feel a lot of friction. If the son or that side of the family chooses to do something different.
[00:26:46] Jay: Yeah, yeah, the expectations I think is an important.
Peace to because as not even just as parents with kids or, having a partner is like expectations of humans as, as one human to another is we often don't express what those expectations are. And I think that's an important part of empty nesting to is to express what are my expectations for what life should look like for me?
What are my expectations for my kids? But what is my expectations for my partner or spouse, right? Or if you're, if you've lost your partner or spouse, like what are my expectations for what life looks like? And to be able to articulate that. So many times we have it, but we don't articulate it.
[00:27:30] Emily: Yes, and it's like we cast people into this role and this story and this scene that we have in our mind and they don't even know that they're a part of it, but we get mad because they don't know what part they're supposed to play.
[00:27:45] Jay: Exactly, exactly.
[00:27:47] Emily: Yeah, so that's so great. So I also think about with empty nesting people that, maybe you're in my situation where they have teenagers or young adults that are still at home and they're trying to prepare for the time when they move out and or maybe they haven't even really thought about that yet.
What can, can people, or should people be doing who are in that situation to mentally and emotionally prepare for, their kids to eventually move out and start their lives? Yeah,
[00:28:21] Jay: I think the first thing is to recognize first of all, like when that first one goes off they're going to soil the nest.
And all that means is it can happen in junior year, but usually it's senior year and it gets more prevalent in the spring of senior year is that kids will start to create space. They don't even know they're doing it. It's subconscious, but they start to create space. So they spend more and more time with their friends or more and more time in their room and they get a little bit sassier and a little bit snippier.
And the reason that they do that, and again, it's all subconscious, but the reason they do that to put that space between the two of you is so that when it comes time for them to go to college or go into the military, you're even leave the house, go to work, whatever their, their path is, is so that you're like, Oh my God, thank God it's time for you to go.
That's the reason it happens. And it's so subconscious, but for people to recognize, so that's step one is recognize that's going to happen. Step two is to start like doing things for yourself. And I know that's really hard as a parent to like, think about yourself and put yourself before your kids, but carving out time for whatever it is you enjoy, whatever the self care may be, so that you can know that that's something you can lean on when they do go.
And then finally think about be prepared for the stages of empty nesting. There's three overarching stages of empty nesting. And the first one is grief. It is. You grieve the loss of what the house was like, because even if you have multiple kids at home, when the first one goes, that dynamic changes, right?
Or if it's the last one to go, it's super quiet. And so there's going to be a grieving period for sure. And then the next stage is relief, right? You're relieved that they're doing okay and that they're experiencing life. And the next one is joy. As you start to live into your emptiness, life, people think when I say there's three stages that it's linear, you're going to go from grief to relief and joy.
No people jump around those stages, right? It gets a relief. The kids come home from for Thanksgiving and they go back. And then that's saying you're back in grief again, because you forgot what it was like, you enjoyed having everybody home and then it's back the way it was and it feels off. And some people jump right to joy.
It's all how the relationship that you have with your kids. So it's very. Individual by each person, because you're a human, right? You're going to experience it differently, but that's how to quote unquote, get ready or empty nesting.
[00:30:56] Emily: Perfect. I love it. Mental preparation. And just, I think even knowing what to expect or what like, is this normal?
Am I crazy for thinking this way? Just knowing that what they may experience is totally normal and that people go through that especially for men too, because People don't have that conversation. I know Robert, my husband, now husband his son just left the house. It's been six months. So about the summer he ended up, moving out on his own and starting to work and I feel for Robert because he wants to spend time with his son and wants to still have that relationship.
And, I think. I'm like he, he wants to spread his wings. Like he wants to be like, I'm free from my parents and I'm my own person now and I do what I want type of thing.
Maintaining Connections with Adult Children
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[00:31:49] Emily: Do you have any tips or insights around how parents can still feel a close relationship with their newly graduated child without also making it feel like they're trying to like cling on or pull them back in or that they're also allowing that person to just have their space and be freed.
What are your thoughts around that?
[00:32:15] Jay: Yeah, I always encourage folks to ask the kids. So when they first go off to college, like staying connected right now, we're Able to be so connected with our kids, right? Through technology, but ask your kids, how do you want to stay connected? Give them some agency so that they can say do you want me to call you?
Do you want me to text you once a week? What does that look like? And allow your kids to verbalize what that looks like. And the same is true when they move out and they start adulting, I would love to stay connected to you. Like I value our relationship and I want to make sure we stay connected.
But again, articulate what do you want that to look like? Can we have lunch or dinner once a month or whatever? Maybe you got to figure out what the distance is and that sort of thing, but build something in, but just don't plan it yourself. Ask them how they want to operate in that new space.
[00:33:11] Emily: Which I'm sure is very difficult to do, especially if you're used to my house, my rules, this is how things are gonna go.
[00:33:18] Jay: Exactly. Exactly. If you're always thinking I'm guiding and controlling everything, that's just, it's not how it works once they hit, basically once they hit to be about 16, right? Is you've gotta figure out the give and take of it all.
Yes. And
sometimes that is asking them what they want.
[00:33:39] Emily: Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you.
Conclusion and How to Connect with Jay
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[00:33:41] Emily: I think this has been incredibly helpful for our audience to learn and to be thinking about. And would you mind to share if people want to learn more, they want to work with you, they want to reach out to you where they can find you online and what's the best way for them to get connected with you?
[00:34:00] Jay: Yeah. So I'm literally the easiest way to do it is to Google Jay Ramsden. I pop up. Multiple times on the first page of Google, but you can also find me on Instagram and Tik TOK as the dot empty nest. coach.
[00:34:15] Emily: And I will be putting all of the links in the show notes. So for those of you who are watching or listening and can't are afraid you're going to forget, you can always go back and find those there.
So Jay, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And I know our audience is going to love it.
[00:34:32] Jay: Thank you so much for having me, Emily.
Join the Brave Widow Community
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[00:34:33] Emily: Are you a widow who feels disconnected? Do you feel like you're stuck or even going backwards in your grief? Widowhood can be lonely and isolating, but it doesn't have to be. Join us in the Brave Widow membership community and connect. We teach widows how to find hope, heal their heart, and dream again for the future.
Find your purpose and create a life you love today. Go to bravewidow. com to get started.
